Personal Bets
Small and Medium Businesses are the backbone of America. I interview those that chose to bet on themselves, and America is better because of them.
Personal Bets
Keenan Crowley - Therapy As A Business
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
A lot of people think therapy is just great conversations in a calm room.
The truth is, being a counselor is also running a business, carrying other people’s pain with care, and then walking back into family life like you didn’t just spend all day inside trauma stories. That’s why I wanted to sit down with Keenan Crowley, a Central Florida Registered Mental Health Counseling Intern building a practice that prioritizes freedom, authenticity, and ethical work.
We talk through the less-discussed side of mental health counseling and private practice. Keenan shares what actually keeps clients coming back, why admin work drains him even when sessions energize him, and how learning and supervision keep him growing without burning out. We also get into community and men’s mental health, including why having a core group matters for your sanity, your marriage, and your ability to lead at work.
The story goes deeper than business. Keenan reflects on his path from youth ministry, culture shock jobs, and a derailed college plan to grad school, becoming a dad, and raising support to pay for school without loans. We close with practical wisdom on self-care rhythms, prayer and decompression after hard days, parenting with grace, and how to break cycles instead of repeating them.
If you’re building a business, raising kids, or trying to strengthen your mental health, you’ll take something useful from this one. Subscribe, share it with a friend who needs it, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.
Keenan can be found over at his personal website: https://keenancrowley.com/
And writing over on substack: https://keenancrowley.substack.com/
ABOUT PERSONAL BETS
Person Bets is a podcast for the people actually running the business, not the investors, not the board, not the consultants on the sideline. Hosted by Chance Sweat, business broker at FitzGibbon Alexander, Inc. and founder of Foundry Leadership.
🔗 Personal Site: chancesweat.com
🔗 Brokerage Site: fitzgibbonalexander.com
🔗 Follow Chance: @itschancesweat
Warm Open And The Calling
SPEAKER_00Why not?
SPEAKER_02I'm just not flexible enough. I've been watching Joe Rogan's podcast, so I'm ready. I'm ready for this.
SPEAKER_00Four-hour podcast.
SPEAKER_02Losing whiskey and cigars like in the middle of the day.
SPEAKER_00I mean, you might get kicked out of this space if we did that. That's true. We'll do that. Kate, I'm curious, man. Uh did you always want to do this?
SPEAKER_02I did. So I didn't, I mean, when I was, before I was a therapist, I was doing student ministry. And um, I found myself doing more like one-on-one conversations like this. And I was like, man, this is what I need to be doing. And then I actually saw a counselor myself and was like, man, this is like this is so life-giving. So I've always like felt like this is my ministry that I need to do. Um so I've always just felt like like this is what God's called me to do. Um so I wouldn't say I wouldn't say like be a therapist has always been a calling, but just helping people develop one-on-one has always been something I think I'm wired to do. Yeah. Is there a difference between uh a therapist and a mental health counselor or usually like the mental health counselors and therapists are kind of like that phrase is used interchangeably, but sometimes you can have like occupational therapists or like a physical therapist, but um most of it's still like um still like just taking care of people. So I usually will use like counselor, therapist, um shrink. Shrink. I'm not not that qualified yet, but uh um like I wouldn't call myself a coach. Okay, like some people use the term coaching, I wouldn't do that. Consulting, maybe, but still no. I go with therapist or counselor. Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And how long have you been doing this now?
SPEAKER_02Um gosh. Uh I've been like a professional for probably a little over a year, and then before that, like I've been in grad school for for about four years, just doing it like for free, or just in training to do it. Um, but been a professional for about a year
Therapist Vs Counselor Clarified
SPEAKER_02or so.
SPEAKER_00Now, you we were talking while setting up that you obviously you rent this space, this is an office, yeah. There's a practice downtown that you're a part of as well, so you have another place that you practice. I when I when I was putting together the idea for for talking to you, I hadn't thought about the fact that there's an entrepreneurial side of this business. Absolutely. When you were getting started, or when you felt like you were being called into this, did you know that there was an entrepreneurial side to this, or was that kind of like after the fact you're like, oh crap, I gotta learn how to run a business?
SPEAKER_02I think I had an idea. Like I was like hearing about people doing it, and like like it's kind of like watching a football game, like watching football and be like, oh, I can do that. And now that I'm like in the game, like, oh shoot, I'm doing it. So like just being able to like I kind of knew it was there, but now that I'm like living it, breathing it, actually doing it every day. Um it's pretty exciting. It's also like really stressful because like the way I operate within my business is all of my people I see have freedom to come and go as they please. I don't like make them see me. I don't go like, hey, like you have to see me 12 times in a row. I go every time I have a session, I'll end it with um, hey, would you like to meet again? And about nine times out of ten, um, they go, yeah, absolutely. And so it's just a lot of like just putting in good work, being consistent, and then just providing just being my genuine self that they wouldn't normally see otherwise in other places. Um sometimes I do that, even on but like just being able, just being like my genuine self, um, even on the entrepreneurial side too, because even before I was a therapist, I was a missionary for another organization where I had to raise money on my own, and even that like was stressful because like I was asking people for money, I was hoping they would follow through. Um, and it's even kind of the same thing here, is like you're just kind of hoping, hey, you set a session rate, you're hoping that they can pay for it, even though they said they could. You're hoping their insurance is good, but it's all just like so being able to kind of roll with the punches, things come up. Um some clients if they sometimes like insurance is like their co-pays will change, and it's like, oh, it was $20 last year, now it's $75, and it's just rolling with what they're willing to do. Um, yeah.
The Entrepreneur Side Of Therapy
SPEAKER_00So I want to go back to what was your first job?
SPEAKER_02My very first job. Your very first day. I was uh I worked at Myers. Do you know what Myers is? I don't even know what Myers. See, you don't know Myers. See, like if you're from the Midwest, you know what Myers is. It's like a feed store. It's like uh close. It's like a cool, it's like a cool Walmart. Okay so like my very first job, I was uh I was pushing shopping carts. Like people would like go shopping and they'd leave their carts out in the parking lot, and I would just go and like just gather all those carts. Um and then just I would do that for like four to eight hours a day. And I was also like in high school too, so I was like playing sports, doing homework, um, just doing all the things high school students do. And if it rained, so to go out and do it, like yeah, it was it was it was definitely an interesting time, interesting job. Um snow. But yeah, snow, that's right. Even if it snowed, I had to go do it.
SPEAKER_00I I'm a little ashamed to admit this, but sometimes in the summer, you know, when it rains every day for like an hour in Central Florida, um I I I'm gonna get beat up online for this. I will be the guy that leaves my cart in the Costco parking lot. It's raining, I've got kids. But now as a grown-up, do you like if you if you see a shopping cart like in between two spots, does it just drive you nuts?
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, especially if they leave them like right in the in the parking spot and their car can go there. I'm like, dang, dude. And then it's like if it's in the parking spot and then like right next to it is like the cart thing, I'm like, dude.
SPEAKER_00I would never do that. Just right, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, oh yeah, people do that all the time.
SPEAKER_00Um, but you've seen the videos of people where they they knock on the window and like, is this your cart? And the person's like, yeah, and they're like, all right. And they put it behind their car.
SPEAKER_02No, I kind of want to now, but um that's funny. I could totally see that happening.
SPEAKER_00So, first job, your shopping cart attendant. Yes, shopping cart technician. Yes, there we go. Technician. And then how did you get to Central Florida then?
SPEAKER_02I was I originally wanted to go um play football at UCF. Okay. That was my original plan. Um, but I wasn't good enough to like have a scholarship to go on, so um I tried to get in like paying in-state tuition prices. So I came down here, lived with a family member in Geneva, um way out there. Way out there. She was like in the sticks, dude. Like for real. Um did that, and then I was at an Italian restaurant, like washing dishes 50 hours a week, trying to you had to make a certain amount of money back then. Uh I don't know what the rules are now, but back then you had to make a certain amount of money, and then every year you have to like apply. Um and it was these weird rules, like you had to have your own health insurance, your parents couldn't claim you on your taxes. To play football? To have in-state tuition. Oh, to have in-state tuition. Yeah, because I didn't have a scholarship to go. So I didn't want to pay out of state and play football. Which out of state, which I don't know what it is now, but back then out of state was like four times as much as in-state. It's still pretty high. Dang, yeah, that's crazy. Um, so I was washing dishes 50 hours a week, working out, and just like trying to do this thing for a year. And at the end of the year, um, I took one class at Seminole State. I was delivering pizzas and washing dishes, and I remember I paid for that class, out of state tuition with like cash. Like I pulled out a lot of like pizza, like delivery pizza money, just like we'll pay for this class. So I took that class.
SPEAKER_00What was the class?
SPEAKER_02I don't even know. I don't even know. That's what's even worse. I don't remember what the class was. Um, it had to be some like English class. I don't know, something stupid. Um, but I paid for that class out of state with pizza delivery money and dishwasher money, took the class, and then at the end of the year, they said, Hey, so we started, we implemented this new rule where if you pay out of tuition, out of state tuition anywhere in any school in Florida, you could never qualify for in-state tuition at UCF. And I'm sitting here like, I took one dang class. Yeah. And I didn't even take a loan out or write a check for that matter. Like just literally cash.
SPEAKER_00Literally just cash. It was a drug deal of a credit card. Pretty much.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. I mean, it could have been. Um but like I just remember being so defeated and just being like, gosh, this plan like did not work. And I remember thinking, well, I could go back to Michigan, probably pick up where I left off, but I just felt like I just felt like that wasn't what it was God calling me to do. And so, um, but in that year, and this is where I think God was showing me that like so many good things were happening. Like I was getting involved in church, I was making friends, I was working really hard, things that were not going on in Michigan. Um, I was like having lunch with my pastor, like that was never happening where I was growing up. Um and he said, like, you can't like totally call this year a waste with all this good stuff that happened. And I'm like, oh my gosh, yeah.
Midwest Roots And Moving For School
SPEAKER_02Um so I ended up doing Liberty Online.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02And at that time I was like, man, I'm really gonna do like youth ministry. I feel because before I was gonna be a teacher.
SPEAKER_00I can see that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, like I really, like I really loved doing that. And then I wanted to um uh I was gonna do a teacher, then got involved in church and was like, man, I really love this youth ministry stuff. So I went to Liberty Online, um, and they actually have a bachelor's in youth ministry you can get. Excuse me, but it's residential. And I'm like, I don't want to go live in Virginia for after I just figured out I'm supposed to be here. Yeah. So I went on, I went, I got a degree online, and it was uh a bachelor's in Christian counseling. Okay, which counseling wasn't even on the radar then. Um and they were like, hey, this is the next best thing, it's all online.
SPEAKER_00What what was on the radar? Because you came here for football.
SPEAKER_02Being a therapist, just being a therapist, yeah, it was not even on my on my radar. Um so I'm like, cool, like it's all online, I can pay for it, like whatever. So I do that. Um here one second.
SPEAKER_00I mean I so you said that being a therapist wasn't on the radar at this point. It was not even a thought of a job I was gonna do. What were you thinking about?
SPEAKER_02I was thinking I was gonna you be gonna be youth pastor.
SPEAKER_00That was just okay.
SPEAKER_02That was the original.
SPEAKER_00And you were gonna go to to school at UCF and get your degree in what?
SPEAKER_02In teaching before that. Okay. And then I went to Liberty and did youth ministry. Um so I did that all online, still working. I ended up working at the church part-time and washing dishes the other part time. Uh is that Italian restaurant still around? Yeah, it's uh it's uh it's by UCF. Um it was a real it was actually a really intense experience because I'm from like Michigan, where everybody's white, we all speak English. And then he went to this restaurant, and I was probably the only white person that worked in the back house that didn't speak English.
SPEAKER_00You know, Anthony Bourdain, celebrity chef. Um in his book, uh oh man, I can't believe I blink on the name of uh Kitchen Confidential. Yeah, he said that when he would go and tour restaurants after he became famous, if the staff spoke English in the kitchen, he did not trust the food was good enough. And he said it was just because they worked harder, right? These immigrants came over, they're trying to make a life for themselves, and they would work harder, and they had such a passion for food. Almost every culture has such a passion for food where we Americans are like, is it fried? Great, you know, right, you know, but they have such a passion for food, and so they would then pick up all right, this is Italian, it needs to be the most flavorful Italian food you've ever had. Yeah, right. Oh, this is you know, Chinese food, you know, I'm gonna make this the best Chinese food ever. That's just different, different mindset, different culture, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And I would agree, like the food there was really good. Um, but it was just totally a culture shock, just seeing all the different kinds of people and different kinds of languages, totally like rocked my world. Um so and that's where I kind of learned, like, I had to kind of figure out okay, this is kind of the culture, it's kind of how everybody is. Um I just need to like kind of adjust appropriately. Um, some of them like I mean, some people people in the restaurant and hospitality tend to drink a lot. So, and I just feel like that is just something that I kind of had to wrestle with a lot. Like I I drank a lot too, but also just kind of had to balance between like okay, I'm gonna do this use ministry thing, but I also can't like be someone who is like of of the world, if that makes any sense. Yeah. Like I can't be living two lives.
SPEAKER_00You can't be a raging alcoholic and then talking about how you shouldn't be a raging alcoholic.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so that was like that was an interesting time because I was not being like my genuine self between those two roles. Um and if you are not like your genuine self, especially being an entrepreneurial, a dad, a mom, whatever, like you're gonna struggle. Yeah. And even in this this job I have now, like I have to really engage in like in who God made me and the kind of person that I am. Um and also trust that God will bring me the right clients that I need to see, and that need to see me. Um, and that's really hard because like there's such a niche out there for different kinds of like modalities or different kind of like populations, and some people really like they really want to see a woman or they really want to see a man, and I'm like, Well, I'm not a woman, uh never gonna be one. Um so it's just it's it's just really trying to hold on to who I am and who I was made to be. Yeah. Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_00But so you get your degree from Liberty Online, and then then you have to go after a master's degree for this, right? That's the first right, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And and and counseling really wasn't even on my radar when I was looking for full-time youth ministry degrees, jobs. Um I remember I worked at a church and they're like, hey, are you thinking you think about getting your master's or your MDEV? And I said, I will never open another textbook again for as long as I live. And I'm like eating those words now. Um of course. Yes. Um, but it was just like I just thought, hey, I'm good, I've arrived. Um and I just felt like working at all those churches, um, they were so like um, they were so like numbers driven, which there's nothing wrong with. Yeah. I'm just that's just not who I am. Like I'm not gonna like put on this huge production to like attract thousands of kids, or even try and take kids from like other churches, or even like you know, just try and like be something I'm not. Yeah. Like I really love teaching the Bible and I really loved leading like small groups and doing one-on-one stuff. Um, and that just wasn't me. And so when I went over to I started a disabilities ministry in East Orlando, um, and when I started doing that, that's when I was like, okay, I love like developing leaders and developing people and just working with like kids with disabilities and partnering with parents, like that stuff I really liked. And there were other elements of that youth ministry that would just they're all about working with high school students, or they're all about working with middle school students, and I just felt like like we're called to like get to know everybody in the family unit, um, which is why I really struggled with that, because like they were back to like numbers, and some people just wouldn't like I had some people on my team that wouldn't even talk to parents, they would like almost oh the parents here and like freak out. I'm just like dudes, they're right, they're grown-ups, and I'm just like, guys, they're just here. So I would go over, so I'll be the one to talk to them. Um and so I felt like that training has been lacking for a lot of youth ministries across across across the country, probably. Um But I think like but it's also like there's the parents too. There's parents that don't want to be involved, they just want to drop their kid off or leave or make their kid walk, whatever. Um so it just depends. Um I forgot where I was going with that. But like I felt like I was really engaging with like dads a bunch. Um so I just found myself again engaging with parents, engaging with one-on-ones, and then I felt like youth ministry was missing like a counseling aspect, and this particular organization was like, nah, we don't do that. And I was just like, but we could though. It's like no, we don't do that. Um
Ministry Work And Being Authentic
SPEAKER_02so we ended up parting ways, and I went off to grad school.
SPEAKER_00Um after you said you would never crack open a textbook.
SPEAKER_02After I said I'll never crack open a textbook. Um and then in the midst of like going to grad school, like we had our first daughter. Like literally like the first semester we had a kid. Um, which was wild ride too.
SPEAKER_00Um How long had you and Kaz been together at that point?
SPEAKER_02Um we got married in 2018, and then this was 2021.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02About three years.
SPEAKER_00And so what was she doing at this point?
SPEAKER_02She was a student advisor. Okay. Yeah. She was doing she was working with like online master's degrees, PhD students. Um, she really wanted a family, and I felt like like no, like I need to get this master's degree done. Um, and then that, like Thanksgiving in 2020, it was like, hey, I think I'm gonna take a pregnancy test. And I'm like, okay, like whatever. And then it was positive. And then like five tests later, oh, they're all positive. Oh, great. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah, I'm like, great, we had all these plans. Um, and again, like just trying to pivot and just be like like where focus on the things in front of us and just taking one step at a time. Um, but I still felt like I even had people be like, hey, maybe you shouldn't like do the grad school thing right now. Like you're about to have a baby. And I just felt like God was like, no, like I put this in front of you, I put this daughter in front of you. Like, this is what you're gonna do. Um, and even for grad school, I didn't want to take out any student loans, and I knew we were gonna afford it. So I ended up raising the money like I did when I worked when I was a local missionary, like just asking people for money, and I raised all the money I needed to go to school. Um, which was another like just crazy God thing because like you know, not everybody does that.
SPEAKER_00That's a yeah, I was gonna say it's a very bold move to ask people for money. I think a lot of people are very uncomfortable with with any topic of money, right? Especially even in ministry, right? Like, you know, there's entire churches that don't talk about tithing at all because it it freaks them out. Right. Um but it's I would say that it's surprising uh who the people who do ask or do bring up the topic. Like, how frequently that normally works, right? And I I mean an story in one of my is you know, I we had our business and we were doing a refinance, and I had to come up with a hundred thousand dollars for the refinance. It's like all right, I have to sell a part of my business, right? And the first person I texted was a good friend of mine, and I told him how much I needed, and his text back was like, where do I wire it to? And I was like, shook. I was like, Are you kidding me? Like wild. And he's like, Well, yeah, I know you and I know what you're made for, and like I know you're gonna pay me back. This was a business loan, so it wasn't like I was just asking him for 100 G's. Yeah, um, but I don't think people lean into their network and their friends and those who love them enough and trust in them to to fund their dreams, right? Right. In your case, you weren't asking for a business loan, but like people were investing in your future, and I would imagine that a lot of people did it because they knew what you were gonna do on the other side of it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. I was really blessed to just have a lot of people really just believing in what I was doing. Um and they knew me really well, and um I felt like like I just was able to like cast vision about like what I was trying to do, and I think that's what really got a lot of people to like kind of buy in and believe. Um so but yeah, it was really it was really powerful. Um because I had a lot of people who were believing in me when I was like doing the special needs ministry, and when I told them I was going over to this, they were like, Yeah, no problem. Like we'll totally switch over. Um, so that wasn't even that big a deal. So it was just cool how like these people were truly giving, and even like what like what you said with your friend, it's just like they were really helping and giving to you, not to whatever business you were doing, because they believed in you, they believed in me. Um it's powerful. And so just having that like core group of people around you that can believe in you and be praying for you too, it's just huge.
SPEAKER_00Could you could you talk from you know from a a guy who's gone to school a lot longer than I and a lot more technical things? Um, how important is it to have a like a core group of people around you? Because I you know, you know my story, but you know, when Taylor went through her breast cancer journey, I didn't have any guys around me. And that's you know, hence the dad fight club came out of that. But how important is it to have that core group for your mental health?
SPEAKER_02Man, it is like it is really hard to do it without a group. And impossible is not quite the word out of you, but it is like you do not have a good chance of either accomplishing your goals, keeping your sanity, keeping your marriage together. Like it is really hard to do any of this by yourself, but just having that group of guys, friends, whoever, to just kind of be there to bounce ideas off of, or even like just like, hey, I'm having a hard time with this. Um what do I do about like just having just some sort of non-judgmental, unconditional, positive regard circle that you can go to that is that will just kind of help listen to you and guide you, and even having circles of guys or people older than you that are just a little bit smarter than you and have are going along the path that you are going on. That's just why like it's so valuable, like whatever business you're doing or whatever you're starting to just have a few people around you who are either doing it or doing it or have been doing it for a long time. Um I have a great supervisor. Um, she's been doing this a super a really long time, and she just like every time I have a question, she's that's like, boom, you should do this, or we can do this, or this or that. And she just it's just great to have someone like that to have your back. And even having like coworkers or people like similar mindsets around you who are also doing the same thing, and even people that are a little bit different than you, um not to get like political, but even like conservatives and liberals should be talking to each other about these things. Um, because if you just have the same kind of people around you, you're just like not um you're just gonna have an echo chamber, yeah, and just hear the same thing over and over again, and it's just not gonna be helpful. Like you need to be challenged on your ideas, but also you need to be encouraged when things are getting really hard. Yeah. Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I was very deliberate when we put together the fight club that I didn't want it to be a men's group. Right. Right. Yeah. I wanted it to be a bunch of different folks. Most of us believe in God, a few don't. Um, some have very different philosophies on life, but but we're all good dads. Yeah. Or at least trying our best to be good dads. Um, I wanted
Grad School With A New Baby
SPEAKER_00to ask you, you know, in in most jobs, there's stressors, and you take things home from work with you and you get upset. And, you know, I used to work in the emergency room and I'd leave with a lot of the trauma that I'd see from the ER. Um, but those were few and far between, right? We might have a code every couple of days that I was a part of. Uh, and half the time it was abscesses and colds and antibiotics and you know, all that kind of stuff. You spend almost every single day dealing with trauma. And so not gonna talk about your patients or anything like that. It's all out of scope for the conversation today. But how do you do that? Like, how do you not go home and just lay on your couch and just like hate the world?
SPEAKER_02Oh man, that's a good one. Um, I give myself a lot of grace because there are like there are so some things in the world that are just not fair. Like you and I can agree that there are just things in the world that are not fair. Um and also just giving myself permission to like not totally shove those feelings down, but at least to feel like a little bit. Um but also just giving it to God. So whenever I get home, I don't like immediately like walk in, unless there's like an emergency or something, I gotta get in there real quick. Um but I just sit in the car, um, and just sit in the silence and just really pray like God, just just asking him to just take just to give me peace. And just having like good rhythms of self-care as well, too. Like even like doing that, maybe it's even like scheduling a break in the middle of the day. Um because we can just be go, go, go, go. But if I don't like, hey, I'm gonna block out this hour, two hours to just relax, take a nap, um, go work out, like it's gonna be it's gonna be hard difficult to maintain um what I'm doing. And so fortunately, like, like I have some gaps in my schedule usually, so I can just be like, all right, this hour, I'm just gonna go for a walk or whatever. Whereas like if you're in sales, it's like you've gotta like, okay, I'm not gonna do any marketing, I'm not gonna do any emails or phone calls. Um, like I'm just gonna block out this time, and I'll just between me, that's just for me. Um, and so I just do a lot of like self-care, sitting outside, smoking a cigar, having some whiskey or whatever. Um and then just also like just having really strong family at home too. That can just kind of be like I can just be like, hey, I had a really bad day. I need like 15 minutes to just take a shower or whatever.
SPEAKER_00Um and just shout out to Kelsey for being there.
SPEAKER_02Shout out to Kelsey, that's right. Yeah, she can uh um and we do that both ways too. Like sometimes she's had a really bad day.
SPEAKER_00I mean, you guys have like a billion kids, so I mean she needs it, she needs some self-care and time away as well.
SPEAKER_02Right, yeah, yeah. Uh and we just had one who's who's three months old, so he's like billion and what? Yeah. Billion and what. Yeah. Um having we have a four-year-old, a two-year-old, and a two-month-old, and um it's pretty much 24-7. Yeah, just anything's going on. The two-year-old will just be like, we'll be watching a movie, and she'll just like she'll just stand up and like just leap off the couch. Like just like be standing on the couch, and I'm like, Sutton, what are you doing? Just leap off, or like she'll she'll be in the other room, it'll be quiet, and Kelsey and I'll be like, it's too quiet.
SPEAKER_00Silence, silence with kids is never a good thing.
SPEAKER_02Never. Um, or when you're like, what are you doing?
SPEAKER_00Nothing. I gotta get away.
SPEAKER_02Hold on. Um, but yeah, and also just like because sometimes she needs like a break too, and I'm just like, okay, like you get an hour, I'll get an hour. Um so uh communication too, like just communicating and just being able to receive that well. Um, because like when I come home, I just I have no idea what happened all day. She has no idea what happened all day with me. Um it's just being able to communicate and receive and support is like gonna be huge, and especially like being an entrepreneur, entrepreneur, um just because you just have some days where everything went to crap and nobody called back or nobody signed or whatever. Um it's just just rolling with it. Yeah, so yeah.
SPEAKER_00I I'm interested. Do you get to work at home at all?
SPEAKER_02Um, I'll do like admin work at home. Okay. But I can't like see clients at home.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, obviously obviously. Um I I I'm wondering if you have this this similarity to me, but sometimes I'll uh you know, part of my consulting work, I have my uh um office at home, so I'll close the door and I'll be on video calls. And I learned very early uh from from working from home that I needed those noise canceling headphones, uh especially with boys, because you have all kinds of stuff going on on the other side of the door. And uh, you know, it'll be like, mom, come wipe my butt, right? And it's like the middle of a very important pitch I'm giving. Yeah. And so learned on or learned very early on to have noise-canceling headphones. But I'm curious, do you feel more I've I've heard this from other entrepreneurs, but when they found the thing that they were supposed to be doing, even if it was an exhausting thing, they they felt recharged by it. And do you feel the same way about your job?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I would say I don't feel that like all the time.
SPEAKER_00Like I do have like some tough There's the nature of your job and some heaviness to it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, but there are like if I have a really good session, there are times I'm like, man, this is what it's like shooting up. Like it's like so good. Um but it's but even like doing admin stuff does not recharge me. Um I really love learning. So anytime I can like get in like a class or something where someone like I do, so right now I'm like working on my Santray certification. Um, there are 10 levels, and I'm doing level three in a couple weeks, and I'm like so excited because the lady who leads it is like been doing this forever and just so knowledgeable, and I love to just sit at the feet of these older people and just learn. And so that gives me the energy too. Um and then like just finding ways to recharge and not so much like it goes back to like that self-care piece of just learning to like just take care of yourself and finding things that motivate you um to do those things. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I I read this great headline the other day in an in a newsletter of all things, but the headline was how to choose what to stress over.
SPEAKER_02That's pretty good, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I was like, that caught my attention. And I'd love to ask you, you know, how do I choose what to stress over?
SPEAKER_02Oh man, that's pretty good. I mean, it's it's definitely like a like I think it goes back to like what your priorities are. Like if your family is your priority, stress over your family. Um it's just I think that's how I would answer that is like what is the most important to you? What gets you out of bed? Yeah, and motivates you, and like there are things like we need to do in our jobs, but also things that like we don't want to do that we still need to do. Like, I have to write like notes after every session, and I'm like, this sucks. Um and sometimes, especially if I'm like back to back, I won't get to do it till the end of the day. So it's like, all right, here's six notes, I gotta bang out right now. Um which AI like helps with that, but you still I still have to like read through it, yeah, because then it'll say some like crazy stuff, but um, but also like just stressing about like how do I provide for my family? And if I don't do my notes properly, and Blue Cross Root Shield audits me and it's like hey, your notes suck, we're gonna pull our contract or remove money we sent you, like that doesn't provide for my family. Um so like I stress over that, or Aetna or Cygna or um like which fortunately they haven't done, um, but uh they're allowed
Community Support And Self-Care Rhythms
SPEAKER_02to. Um not not like take money away, but if they want to like see my notes for some of their clients, they'll do it. Um so but I think that I would always go back to okay, how am I providing best for my family? And also like if I'm doing a job I hate doing and I bring that home, like that's not providing either. Yeah. That's just like you know, that's stress on top of stress.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'm curious because you know, it's like um you ever uh heard the talk about like, you know, you shouldn't see a dentist who has uh all of his teeth are rotten out. Right. Right. Uh how do you feel like you've cultivated a good head space? Right? Because being a dad's not easy, right? Doing this job, I I could never do this job uh that you do. Um being a husband is tough, right? And so we already talked about how you kind of you do take home some of the stressors of this, but what are some methods besides the um, you know, scheduling the self-care time? You know, do you do you come into the day and try and set, you know, uh I'm I'm a bit, you know, I love golf, so I think like a swing thought, right? What you're thinking while you're going through the motions. Yeah. Do you have a remarkable headspace all the time?
SPEAKER_02Um short answer no. Definitely don't. Um, but I always try to like prioritize like like my self-care and just having like my headspace clear. Um like even today, well, most days, I usually try and get here a little early because I know it's quiet. It's not quiet at my house at all. Uh and if I try to find a quiet place in my house, they'll find me. So um, but I try to get get somewhere a little bit early, have some coffee, just kind of sit, uh, reflect on the day. Um and then like, you know, if like I've if something happens, like if I find out something happens at home or something uh I'm dealing with outside of work, it's just kind of like that has to be suspended for a little bit. And like I'll put that to the side, and then zero on on who I'm working with. Um because at the end of the day, like that issue is still gonna be there whether I am working all day or not. Um and so just kind of learning to put that to the side, but also knowing too that like like it will it will get handled. I know, you're here to speaker, it's fully charged and it's letting me know. It's an interesting usually stops by now. You angered it. I did when I liked it. Um but yeah, that's that's kind of how I deal with that. And even sometimes too, it's like there are people I really like working with, which most of which fortunately in my role, I have the freedom to kind of pick and choose who I want to work with. And if I don't want to work with them, like I can just go, hey, like this really isn't working out for this really isn't working out. Um, I don't think I'm a good fit. And and it's not even so much like I don't like them, it's just more like, hey, I can't help you, which ethically, according to our ACA codes, like if we can't help somebody, we cannot, it's unethical for us to keep seeing them, even if they're paying like $500 a session or something ridiculous. Like it's unethical. So at that point, I'm just like, okay, like we're not getting anywhere. I think I have someone else you might be able to like you might like seeing, which I've had to do. Um, and like it's all about just helping people take their take their next steps on who they're supposed to be.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, I I um you know, I do the business coaching thing, and and I'm sure there's some clients I've talked to where it's like I could probably collect a nice paycheck, but you're doing all the things that you should be doing. So I'm I'm just personally not gonna do that because it doesn't feel right to me. Um, but then you read about some of these coaches and they're like, you know, I made a hundred thousand dollars this year from this client, right? And I worked one hour a week, and it's like, I don't think that's the right move to make. Um, it just seems inauthentic to me. And I think in in your role in this business, it to your point earlier, it's it's about being authentic, right? Right. And if I can't help you, I'm not gonna pretend to help you. Right. Um so I interesting that that's uh that that's come up. I I'm just curious on like where does the future go? What does your future look like, right? Where does this grow in terms of a a business, right? Because you know, you've got your two offices here, you'll be uh no longer an intern, which I always find is a very interesting word that you guys it's so it's ridiculous, right?
SPEAKER_02Like, yeah, we probably need a whole other meeting just to go talk about that. How how that's gone to like the governor and how it's like they're like voting on it the next few weeks. Not the next few weeks, a few weeks ago, they were voting on it, and of course, like it won't pass, but you know, um, there's just there was this push to make change our title like associates, which to me makes more sense. Yeah, but yeah, it's weird.
SPEAKER_00I mean, they've even changed like um you know, back when I worked in the ER, it was um physician assistant PAs, and they changed that to physician associates because it it assistant just didn't really match. And I think intern too, intern to me, I'm thinking of student, right? But you're like fully licensed and capable to help people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean I'm I'm pre-licensed, pre but yeah, but still, like, you know, people are like, oh, good luck the rest of your internship. And I'm like, thanks. Um this is actually my job. This is actually my job. But I just I just have decided maybe this to get in the second podcast right now, but like but I've just decided I I used to like it, like I was like pushing it too. Like I was sending emails and like emailing Rick Scott and all that, and uh um but now I'm just like you know what, I'm gonna let my work work for myself, and if they pick me over someone else, or yeah, then kudos to me. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So so what does the future of your business look like? Yeah, what's on the horizon?
SPEAKER_02So my my hope is to so where we're at right now, there's like a bunch of offices, yeah, and like there's like a main one. So my hope is to like someday what you can do in this job is you get licensed and then you do that for three years, and then you can be a registered qualified supervisor, and where you can oversee like interns and students, and my goal with that is to um collect. A bunch of collect more registered interns that are kind of doing what I'm doing right now and help them take their steps to like find clients, build their counseling practice, and when they're licensed, they will go on their own. Either go, okay, you can stay here and have a fee a better fee split with me, or you can go out on your own. So basically it's to build a team that I'm collecting a fee split from them and they're seeing clients and doing their own thing.
SPEAKER_00So after all of this, you're gonna be a teacher. Basically. That's what it is. And but you're not, you know, and and I've known you for almost a year and a half, almost two years now. And never once in any of the conversations where I was talking about something I'm doing or thinking about doing, have you ever said, Well, you need to do X, Y, and Z. You've always been the friend that's like, have you thought about? And then I'm like, man, I'm so smart. I just thought about this. And it's like, you know, and I've done some retrospect while I was prepping for today. I was like, man, a lot of the ideas I've had have come out of a question that Keenan just drops in casual conversation.
SPEAKER_02I mean, sometimes that's that's like the best way is to like kind of ask, just kind of stir people's brains around and just ask the right questions for them to arrive at their own conclusions because it's way more powerful. And that's what I hope to do someday as I as I build a team and equip other therapists to do that. So
Ethics Boundaries And The Future Plan
SPEAKER_02that's kind of my hope is to keep thought-provoking people.
SPEAKER_00So for people who may watch or listen to this and they're not in the Central Florida area, um, maybe their insurance isn't taken by by you in the office. What resources, books, podcasts, you know, what should people be listening to to kind of cultivate that mental garden to build that resiliency? Um what's your go-to recommendations?
SPEAKER_02Um I would say Psychology Today posts a lot of really good articles. Okay. Both like with kids, with families, um, mental health stuff. Um, I would also recommend, like, there's this book I recommend to all the men I see called No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert Glover. Okay. It's really good. It's kind of like getting out of that nice guy syndrome. Um, and there's a few others, like atomic habits. We've talked about that a bunch. Um by Jordan Jordan Clear, right? Clear. James James Clear. James Clear. James Clear. Um, that's a really good book.
SPEAKER_00Um just the opening of that book, the baseball story. Yeah. Like, even if you're not a big non-fiction reader, you read that first chapter and you're like, I have to finish it because this guy took a fastball to the face. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like, you know. Right. Um I also I also have a blog. I have my own blog that I write about mental health stuff, Mindful Reflections.
SPEAKER_00How did I not know that?
SPEAKER_02I don't like advertising much, but it's there.
SPEAKER_00All seven of my followers are the most yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh I have that one. You can go to Keenan, I also have a website, KeenanCrowley.com. I post stuff there. Um, but yeah, those are like the big ones. Um Jordan Peterson also has a lot of good podcasts, too. Um trying to think. I also listen to the play therapy podcast, uh, because I do a lot of play therapy with kids. Okay. And they post a lot of good like parenting stuff in there too. Okay. Um, so yeah, those are like my go-tos.
SPEAKER_00Do you ever catch yourself when you're parenting your kids and you're like, like, does does the counselor can like pop into your head and be like, oh, you actually should do it this way?
SPEAKER_02Or oh, all the time. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes I have to like turn it off because like they don't need the counselor, they need their dad. Yeah. And I'm just like, Yep, I need to be dad right now. Like, we're not gonna like play in the sand and be like, oh, tell me what this means. It's like, no, go to your room.
SPEAKER_00Like, yeah. It's it's so funny you say that because um we were having this conversation, uh, one of my dad friends and I this past week about how in my when we s when we owned our business, my wife would go every couple Saturdays and spend some time with our employees and work and whatnot. And the boys would stay with me, and you know, I'd sit down and do some writing on the laptop or read a book, or you know, may make big breakfast for for me and the boys, and the boys would just self-entertain and play and do their thing. And um, and then other Saturdays I would go to the shop, and when I came home, it looked like a tornado had ripped through our house, and my wife would be like, I need to go outside for like an hour, right? It's like, right, yeah, what's the difference there? And I I realized that I inadvertently started to channel my grandfather and I do the glasses thing and look over the glasses, or I'd be like, Hey, you know, and the boys straighten up and it's like, huh, all right, he's still in there a little bit, right? But sometimes I do catch myself when I'm getting angry at them. I'm like, all right, what would the perfect dad do in this situation? And I've asked myself that question a ton. Yeah. Uh, and sometimes it's I I don't do that. Right. And I do send my kids to to bed without uh finishing their dinner. I do let them come back and finish dinner, but I make them think that they're going to bed. Right. Um, they'll probably talk about that in therapy someday. But my my last question here is I it's actually on the topic of grace, and I'm I'm glad that you brought that up earlier. But for those of us, and obviously this podcast is more on the business front, but I think your episode is really the business of the mind. And I'm curious, I think no matter how good our parents are, and this is my own personal opinion and philosophy,
Books Podcasts Parenting And Grace
SPEAKER_00no matter how good my mom was raising me and my stepdad, there's always some trauma that they're gonna impart. That, and there's I know there's trauma that I'm gonna impart on my kids that I don't mean to. How do we not give ourselves a pass? But any recommendations on how I reconcile that as a dad who's cognizant that some of the ways I'm parenting is gonna cause some emotional stress for my kids?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, I would say like um, I had like five thoughts come to my head at once. Um, like, you are not your parents, you are you. And so you have the ability and the opportunity to set your family in a different direction. You also know what not to do, like you're kind of like, okay, my dad did that, I am not doing that. Um and so also just just recognizing that like you have a clean slate, and this is your opportunity to pick and choose what your parents did that you liked and take the out the stuff that you didn't like. Um because when your kids get older, they're gonna do the same thing. They're like, Man, my dad did this, I'm not doing that. But my mom and dad did this, we're gonna do that. And so um I think that's just trying to do a little bit better than our parents did, but also giving grace that they were doing the best that they could. Um and not totally like putting it all on them because it is your responsibility now because you are in this position.
SPEAKER_00I'm in a position now where what trauma I did receive, I can go and see someone like you and work through that. Right, exactly. And break that chain. So, I mean, I you know, you know the story, and I I'm open with this, but you know, after Taylor had her um cancer journey, I started seeing a therapist. And those first few sessions, I was like, this is garbage. Like I feel just as bad as I did previously. And it was one of those questions where my therapist asked me something that was super generic and I felt like very open-ended, and I just broke down, dude. Middle of the session, just broke down, and I was like, Alright, I'm good, I'm better. And she goes, No, we're just getting started. Yeah, we're just getting started. Yep. But I think anyone and everyone could benefit from sitting down with someone who's well trained and educated and just talking for sure, right? And just talking, but so people know where to find you. Any last parting words of advice?
SPEAKER_02Um I think we're all just trying to figure this whole thing out, life. Um and so we have to give ourselves grace as much as like giving the people around us grace. And so, like, just everyone's doing their best. Yeah. And so that's kind of my last piece.
SPEAKER_00Well, man, I am grateful for you as a friend, uh, as a brother in Christ. Uh, I'm grateful for all the advice that you've given me, even inadvertently, through men's theology and the Dad's Fight Club. Uh, I love when I see you post something and it's about your business, or if someone posts on Facebook and they're asking for recommendations, it's always my favorite thing. If I'm the first one to comment and tag you, it almost feels like a little bit of a game now on Facebook. Um, but I I really appreciate you and I I just want to make sure that's out there and thank you for for coming on today.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thank you for having me. It was really good.
SPEAKER_00Next time we do this, big leather couch.
SPEAKER_02Let's go. All right, do it.
SPEAKER_00And that's it, guys. That's the pod.